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[personal profile] jona
I found this through [livejournal.com profile] galacticanews, so I suppose most of you have already seen it, but reading [livejournal.com profile] fairestcat's thoughts on shipping and slashing issues in BSG fandom here yesterday, I found myself nodding in agreement quite a lot, and it made me try to pull some things together that have been going through my head about BSG fandom. Read at your own risk.


Unlike [livejournal.com profile] fairestcat, I'm not really from a mixed het and slash, but rather a mostly slash background. I haven't seen that much het bashing in the fannish venues I've hung out in, though. I was used to mostly separate spheres for het and slash fans, so the trend I seem to observe in the newer fandoms to lump it all together and 'ship' same sex pairings was different for me at first, but also pretty cool. And hey, BSG was the first fandom in years where I'm head over heels for a het ship, and that was all cool and new and pretty exciting.

But also a little odd sometimes.

I came to fandom late enough, or maybe it was a matter of luck and where I was hanging out, that I can't recall a single big slash flamewar or any sort of war over how wrong/right slash is. I'm sure there were some issues, and a lot of it is coincidence, I guess, but somehow, I managed to miss all that completely.

So the first time I came across the 'Slash? OMG WTF?!' sentiment in BSG fandom, I was stumped. Of course slash isn't everyone's cup of tea; I know that and I have no problem with that whatsoever. But my previous experience in fandom hadn't really included people being offended by the existence of slash. (Not that I'm sorry for that.)

As it wasn't a single occurrence, I was wondering if I was the only one finding this odd, and there came [livejournal.com profile] fairestcat's post. And some of the issues she mentions had me thinking about something else that I've been wondering about this shiny new fandom of mine.

From where I'm standing, BSG often seems a very cranky fandom.

There's a level of crankiness, or maybe even defensiveness, I've seen in discussions that I found completely unexpected. Not in every discussion, not in all venues, and I do apologise for the generalisation after I've had many very good and interesting discussions with people. But, you know, it's still a lot compared to what I would normally assume. And predictably, I find this most apparent in pairing discussions.

There are pairings I can see, and pairings I can see if I squint. There are pairings I can see but don't like, and there are pairings that make me go, 'Not in a million years.' Different things work for different people. Sometimes it's fun comparing and taking apart why something doesn't work and sometimes that's a futile exercise. Sometimes I'm tempted to say, "But... but... don't you see..." but then I usually get a grip, because proselytising is silly. (And if I ever do end up trying to shove my preferences down someone else's throat, would someone kindly kick me in the head, please?)

What I don't understand is how someone writing something you don't like, or consider silly or implausible, damages your interpretation and your particular preference.

Just so we're on the same page here, I don't believe in saying only nice things, or that disagreements are bad -- I think discussion is good; I think "this story doesn't work" is a perfectly okay thing to say, as is "no, this pairing doesn't work for me." Most people who've ever had a longer feedback note from me would probably agree that I tend to write honest, not one-sided feedback, and I genuinely want honest feedback for my own stories, as well.

So it's not the disagreements that have left me scratching my head, or even that some people are less zen about their likes and dislikes than others; it's the crankiness. Seriously, the sense of offence I've seen come through in quite a few discussions, right from the start of my involvement in the fandom, has just simply puzzled me.

Sure, I'm not particularly fond of some pairings. I'm not fond of stories that feature my pairing but that have completely out there characterisations, either, and I generally prefer stories that spell the characters' names correctly and that bear some resemblance to what I see on the screen. But I don't consider it a slap in the face that the things I don't like exist.

This is where I found myself nodding most vigorously during reading [livejournal.com profile] fairestcat's post. I'm wary of the 'if you don't like it, don't read it' argument, because it's often used in lieu of 'you're a meanie for criticising, how dare you!' But I agree with her point: who is forcing you to look at this stuff that you find so offending? That you know you won't like?

This is such a young fandom. As far as I can tell, we haven't had a proper ship war or a character war or the Big Rift In Season X or anything like that. And while I'm not reading as widely as others, I also don't think we already have the kind of fanon that is so entrenched that people have to defend themselves if they're not going with it; if you get an annoying piece of fanon slapped in your face over and over, then yes, I understand if that makes you snap eventually. But I don't see it here at all.

It's particularly mind-boggling when this defensiveness comes from the biggest and most-written ship in the entire fandom. If there were a few lonely people who thought that the general trend of the fandom was really detrimental to, say, their love for Roslin/Baltar, I suppose I'd find it more understandable; I'd still ask you how your love for your pairing and your interpretation of the show is damaged by other fans having different preferences, but I think at least I'd get where the frustration comes from. This, I don't get.

And of course, if I go to the trouble of mentioning it here, you can assume that apart from truly and honestly not understanding where the crankiness comes from, I also don't like it much; I don't think it's beneficial to fannish discussion, and it sets a tone I don't find very pleasant.

That's probably the gist of this post. I like hashing out why I like and dislike the things I do as much as the next person, but I think there's a way to do it and a way that's not really helping with discussion, and since I'm all for discussion, I think that's a shame.


Date: 2005-07-27 12:42 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ysrith.livejournal.com
I am still mind-boggling over what drugs people in BSG fandom have been taking since I went away last week. I come back from holidays and boom!

I just give up!

I just don't understand fanatical shippiness, be it het or slash. And someone explain to me how on earth writing Lee slash affects the L/K shippers.

Shades of SG fandom.

Though mind you I have noticed that most the people getting their knickers in a twist over this are also SG fans. Do you think that is a clue?

BTW talking about oppressed sub-fandoms are we getting any more Lee/Laura from you soon?

Date: 2005-07-27 01:44 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] k-julia.livejournal.com
I come back from holidays and boom!

A welcome back present for [livejournal.com profile] ysrith?

I just don't understand fanatical shippiness, be it het or slash.

I understand it in one sense -- I understand digging in your heels and saying, "Nope, not reading Lee/Tigh, not in this life!" or "Nope, not reading that Roslin/Lee stuff because it gives me a mommy vibe!" or whatever. Read what makes you happy, stay away from things that gives you stomach aches, no problem. But how somebody else liking things you don't like, or not liking what you do like, and getting all upset over that, I don't understand.

I wouldn't know the first thing about SG fandom, as I've never watched the show. So I don't know if that's any use as an explanation. :-)

BTW talking about oppressed sub-fandoms are we getting any more Lee/Laura from you soon?

Don't know if you've seen that, I updated the WIP on Saturday with a fairly long part. I'm hoping the next bit will be up in a timely fashion, but whiner that I am, I had to take a short break after several scenes of doom.

Date: 2005-07-27 02:59 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ysrith.livejournal.com

A welcome back present for ysrith?


Unforuntately!

Here I was hoping that the two new episodes would spawn lots of Lee Angst and what do I get - fan wars.

People's time would be far better spent writing fic, whatever the pairing! There is a bad enough dirth of decent, well-written BSG fic as it is. Can you tell that I am getting more and more annoyed with this as the day goes on.

Talking of fic. Mmm - new part = good. I am dying to see where you are going with that one.

Of course, Lee/Laura shippers are demented. Didn't you know that? :)

Date: 2005-07-27 03:21 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] k-julia.livejournal.com
Talking of fic. Mmm - new part = good. I am dying to see where you are going with that one.

Hope you won't be disappointed. *g*

Of course, Lee/Laura shippers are demented. Didn't you know that? :)

No, I missed that particular take this time around. I only thought we all had a mommy thing.

Date: 2005-07-27 02:29 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
I do believe, from what I've seen, that it's exactly the same people as in the SG fandom who just absolutely freak out at the thought of slash. The best thing to do is ignore them. Crazy, crazy fans.

Date: 2005-07-27 02:59 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ysrith.livejournal.com
I have said this before and I will say it again, Stargate Fans, esp Sam/Jack fans scare me!

Drugs, is has to be drugs!

Date: 2005-07-27 03:14 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
Ditto.

Date: 2005-07-27 12:49 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] asta77.livejournal.com
Wordy McWord. Having survived the Buffy fandom, I can say I haven't seen anywhere near the gripes, arguments, and disallusionment I saw there. Then again, we only have 19 hours of BSG to deconstruct thus far as opposed to 150 plus hours with Buffy. I am forseeing trouble just becasue I think we've all put so much thought into the show already and people are tending to look down the road and set up certain expectations for themselves that there is bound to be disappointment and crankiness.

I was unaware of any slash backlash. If people want to ship Lee/Helo or have Tyrol/Helo bonding over being duped by a Cylon, so be it. I don't see it, but then I don't see Lee/Kara either. ;) Hey, I don't believe for a minute my ship is THE right one, but given that the show seems to have provided the possibility of it, I'm curious to see what path they choose to take with the two. They could also go with Lee/Kara, since they have given us evidence that she has more than a 'just friends' interest in Lee. There is just so much great stuff going on in this show, I'd hat to see the fandom get bogged down in ship wars already.

Date: 2005-07-27 03:27 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] k-julia.livejournal.com
Then again, we only have 19 hours of BSG to deconstruct thus far as opposed to 150 plus hours with Buffy.

That's what has me so puzzled. I suppose I haven't ever been involved in a fandom that was this recent, so maybe it's not so unusual after all. But I don't get where this stuff is coming from; our show is good to us -- there's usually something for everyone! -- and we haven't had serious feuds which might explain why people are taking other people's preferences like an insult.

I was unaware of any slash backlash. If people want to ship Lee/Helo or have Tyrol/Helo bonding over being duped by a Cylon, so be it. I don't see it, but then I don't see Lee/Kara either.

Yes. I'm not seeing a whole lot of slashy vibes on this show, either, but the idea that it's somehow harming the other pairings if some people do write slash is ludicrous.

Date: 2005-07-27 03:03 pm (UTC)
ext_2918: (Default)
From: [identity profile] therealjae.livejournal.com
Ship wars/cold wars baffle and intrigue me. We never had anything like them in the West Wing fandom, you know--I mean, for the most part, everybody read everything that was good, even if it wasn't your pairing of choice. And you guys in BSG are nothing compared to the Harry Potter folks, who are just *crazy* with the ship wars.

Oh, and speaking of BSG, we have the date set for our marathon (http://www.livejournal.com/users/nlindq/18608.html)!!! So soon I will Get It. And perhaps you will even have your story finished by then, so then I can read it and understand it all ... ?

-J

Date: 2005-07-27 03:31 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] k-julia.livejournal.com
And you guys in BSG are nothing compared to the Harry Potter folks, who are just *crazy* with the ship wars.

Oh, I know. And I chose my words deliberately; I wouldn't actually call us 'crazy' with anything, and I'm certainly glad we haven't had those ship wars. I just find the defensiveness utterly baffling, and not just a little bit unpleasant.

Oh, and speaking of BSG, we have the date set for our marathon!!! So soon I will Get It.

Yay! I would love to hear what you think of it.

And perhaps you will even have your story finished by then, so then I can read it and understand it all ... ?

Hah. Bloody hah. I think the second part will certainly be finished by then -- of four. I won't try to talk you into reading anything unfinished if that's not your thing, but it's going to be a while yet until it's completely done.

Date: 2005-07-27 03:40 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lesbiassparrow.livejournal.com
I read the same comment and was interested. Though, to be honest, I thought her argument was weakened a bit by her not actually quoting anything directly. Talking about slash-bashing is a great idea, but I think you need to do more than make the accusation, you need to track down examples and point them out so people can sift through what's out there. Because otherwise it is hard for me to make up my own mind about these things. (This is one of my annoyances with the internet in general - the lack of footnooting/referencing! The world is a better place with footnotes, people!) If I was to post about Laura/Lee loathers I like to think I would reference some people with concrete examples of what I find unconvincing about their arguments.

God knows there's lots of bashing on both sides for most fandoms that you can easily find (fandom wank is full of the crazier examples) ranging from 'those who write slash are destroying the children of the world via the internet' to 'men having sex with women is disgusting and x female should be stomped to death by elephants for breaking up true love.' It doesn't seem exclusive to any one fandom or pairing and both sides can be equally bonkers.

Personally I don't get why you care about people writing certain pairings myself. On the other hand, I also don't get why people get irked over other people *not* liking certain pairings either. Does it really matter if someone doesn't like your pairing as long as they're not spamming you about it?

It's surprising to me how hard it is for me to see slash pairings in BSG, though, given the amount of hot men on the show. I think it has something to do with the lack of direct sustained interaction between men who are not related. For example, Lee seems to interact with women a lot more than men other than his father - compare this to Smallville where there's tons of Clark/Lex interaction and hence very fertile ground for slash (at least that's the way it seems to me). I don't require canonical evidence before I ship someone, but I do think it helps if there is some interaction between them. Though given that I am now shipping Lee/barrel, I don't have a leg to stand on.

Date: 2005-07-27 04:10 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nolivingman.livejournal.com
What you would call helpful footnoting, some people would balk at as being "calling somebody out." *shrug* Sometimes people get wanky whichever way you choose. For tracking back, I'll tell you that I had assumed she was referencing multiple events until [livejournal.com profile] meyerlemon reacted as though it was related to her dislike (http://www.livejournal.com/users/meyerlemon/263334.html) of a Billy/Lee fic, so maybe that was the trigger event.

Date: 2005-07-27 04:26 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lesbiassparrow.livejournal.com
I backtracked and thought that too. And I get what you say about not wanting to call people out and start some sort of flame war. But I do wonder if that people did more linking of information if it might not be possible to have a more temperate tone in some discussions. (Though I am likely wrong about this and much craziness would ensue.)

My big point (and it really is a general comment and not specific to this debate) is the arguments that swirl around the internet about fandom are often a bit nebulous and general and it's hard to pin them down and sort out for yourself what is actually going on. It may have something to do with the informality and temporary nature of much on the internet as much as anything, though.

Date: 2005-07-27 04:36 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nolivingman.livejournal.com
*nod* I have seen the case where somebody rants, somebody else assumes it has to be about them and starts a kerfuffle, and then in the end it turns out the original rant was about some third party, so I can definitely see your point.

Occasionally fandom_wank is very useful in that regard by presenting a nicely laid-out history of the wank.

Date: 2005-07-27 06:51 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lesbiassparrow.livejournal.com
It would be nice if there was a less fraught way of seeing the history behind issues without making it personal. By the time something has made it's way to fandom wank things have usually gotten so toxic that reasoned debate is impossible.

Date: 2005-07-27 04:44 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] k-julia.livejournal.com
Or, you know, what [livejournal.com profile] nolivingman said, in far fewer words. :-) I'm certainly not keen on a flame war, so let's hope for the best.

Date: 2005-07-27 04:35 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] k-julia.livejournal.com
Though, to be honest, I thought her argument was weakened a bit by her not actually quoting anything directly.

Well. On the one hand, I see your point about footnoting. And I know it doesn't really lead to good discussion to post 'I saw X happen' and then have everybody jump in saying 'You are so right!' or 'You are so wrong!' without having seen what actually happened.

On the other hand, this being LJ, not a seminar in which we discuss books by other people, the whole distinction between disagreeing with someone's opinion and dissing the person can be a bit hard to maintain. Especially if you, as I'm doing in this post, start talking about things like tone.

The other thing is: I don't bookmark things I find annoying. I read the post by [livejournal.com profile] fairestcat and thought, Yes, I've seen this, I've thought exactly the same! I haven't bookmarked a single instance where this happened because I don't actually like making myself cranky. I make no claim that this is a complete overview of all of fandom; it's my impression.

On yet another hand, however, the post by [livejournal.com profile] meyerlemon that was linked to on today's [livejournal.com profile] galacticanews post that seemed to be a response to [livejournal.com profile] fairestcat and the some 150 comments agreeing with it has some very good examples of what I (can't speak for [livejournal.com profile] fairestcat) mean when I talk about the 'Slash? OMG WTF?!' sentiment.

Granted, this is the point where it's my own responsibility for clicking. If I suggest to people to stay away from things that are bothering them, I should just do the same. But when I do stumble across something like this unexpectedly -- well, the defensiveness boggles the mind, and some of the comments on slash makes me shudder.

As for slashiness on BSG, the one instance I can see easily is Gaeta's thing for Baltar. And while I like Gaeta on the show, I'm not terribly into reading or writing stories about him. ;-) There is a lot of stuff between Adama and Tigh that would in most cases to slashers being all over them, but the 'Jed and Leo' thing is really rather accurate. They both just ping me as straight, and there's the wife thing.

I do wonder what will happen with Roslin and Starbuck, should they ever get more interaction.

Date: 2005-07-27 04:57 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lesbiassparrow.livejournal.com
I do wonder what will happen with Roslin and Starbuck, should they ever get more interaction.

Female slash seems rarer than male slash in most fandoms so I think that that pairing will be the slowest of all to get traction (also there's the age issue). I think Lee as main male character will probably be paired with everyone at some point. Ditto for Starbuck. (Though Roslin's age may preclude that pairing at bit as well as the aforementioned issue with femmeslash.)

And I agree with you on issues of footnoting - it is easy for these things to get out of hand and people can get personally offended to a huge degree. But sometimes I think this is the huge flaw of the internet as a discussion tool; because it links people and then frees them from the social responsibility of having direct face to face backlash for their views - unlike in a personal discussion where you have to face the consequences. And people react to this by not wanting to invite hassle by going out of their group.

I should admit that I contributed to the [livejournal.com profile] meyerlemon debate (though I have to admit I didn't know that it referenced [livejournal.com profile] fairestcat's comment. And I actually thought much of the comments ended up being about fandom's interests in general (such as why is it so interested in gender and sexuality rather than class). Well, there was also my on-going debate about the symbolism of Lee's love for his barrel, but that was really born out of annoyance with badly theorized essays in printed fandom studies, which really can be crappier than anything I've read on the 'net.

Date: 2005-07-30 12:55 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com
Man, asking people to name names will cause DRAMA! And drama on the internets is always a bad thing!

(Seriously, though, you've got a point. And half the time people get all defensive anyway and assume it's about them.)

Date: 2005-07-27 04:27 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nolivingman.livejournal.com
Yeah I've noticed a real sense of possessiveness at work here. BSG fandom doesn't belong to anybody, regardless of what ship they like. And isn't there room for all of us to play, after all?

So I'm nodding along to this, and hoping the crankiness works itself out quickly, because I adore the show, and want to adore the fandom as well.

Date: 2005-07-27 05:58 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] k-julia.livejournal.com
So I'm nodding along to this, and hoping the crankiness works itself out quickly, because I adore the show, and want to adore the fandom as well.

Yes, that pretty much sums it up for me.

Date: 2005-07-27 05:24 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] voleuse.livejournal.com
Thanks for posting this. I've been feeling disgruntled with fandom lately, but seeing reactions like yours have helped a lot.

Date: 2005-07-27 06:02 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] k-julia.livejournal.com
You're welcome. Fandom shouldn't be disgruntling, so I'm glad if this could help out. :-)

(in from metafandom)

Date: 2005-07-30 12:50 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nostalgia-lj.livejournal.com
I was used to mostly separate spheres for het and slash fans, so the trend I seem to observe in the newer fandoms to lump it all together and 'ship' same sex pairings was different for me at first, but also pretty cool.

I've found that generally newer fandoms seem to start off like that, and the slash/het divide kicks in later, once people have got their OTPs and whatnot. (Like, Atlantis and Stargate fandoms seem to be made of primarily the same people, but it started out far more integrated than Stargate fandom is.) It's like... it feels like the slash/het wars aren't as much of an issue if they aren't sharing characters and creating competing OTPs. Also I sort of wonder where BSG's fans are coming from, in terms of other fandoms. Maybe they got defensive somewhere else and it's carried over?


Re: (in from metafandom)

Date: 2005-07-31 06:40 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] k-julia.livejournal.com
Also I sort of wonder where BSG's fans are coming from, in terms of other fandoms. Maybe they got defensive somewhere else and it's carried over?

I have no idea. It could be one aspect; I'm just really, really puzzled by the hostility in some places and the idea that different preferences somehow infringe on your enjoyment of your own.

And admittedly, I speak from somewhat limited experience; it's been a while since I was actively involved in a fandom, and I've never been widely poly-fannish, so maybe this is all standard. But I still don't get it.

Date: 2005-07-30 01:52 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jennyo.livejournal.com
Well, I'm...used to fandom crankiness? Often because I help make it go because I don't hold punches with my opinions? And drink a big glass of haterade every morning?

But this is the first time since X-Files fandom of 1998 where there's this much hostility to slash and the OTP is this viciously bitchy about the existence of other pairings. And it has a new aspect about meta that I Just Don't Understand. I mean, fine, it just makes it that much easier for me to edit and write the best essay for "Reading Battlestar Galactica" in two years when IB Taubis lets me do one of the books? But it also makes it harder for me or whoever edits a book like that to find thoughtful work from the fans.

Also, it's the first time in a long time where I wasn't even doing anything and I helped cause a "ship war." Because if squeeing over the second-most-likely Lee ship is radical, then that's weird. Like, it would be different if I was all about, oh, Lee/Boomer, and was like, "Galactica Boomer shot Daddy Adama for Lee! That's so romantic!" but yeah, this is unexpected and new. And weird.

Date: 2005-07-31 06:51 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] k-julia.livejournal.com
Well, I'm...used to fandom crankiness? Often because I help make it go because I don't hold punches with my opinions? And drink a big glass of haterade every morning?

Well, I suppose that would help with being less surprised. :-)

I don't think we're there with a 'ship war' yet, and I can certainly live without one. But still -- it's weird.

Like, it would be different if I was all about, oh, Lee/Boomer, and was like, "Galactica Boomer shot Daddy Adama for Lee! That's so romantic!

Would it? I mean, you might not find a lot of people buying into that particular interpretation, but I'd still be scratching my head if people were all offended by it. FWIW, your Billy/Lee story that was the subject of some of the stranger reactions was an 'almost sold' for me -- I found it very interesting and I liked parts of it, but I wasn't quite there at the end; and I've got no problem with someone saying they're not reading that pairing (or Roslin/Lee or Kara/Helo or whatever) out of principle. It's this sense that it hurts your particular ship if other people favour other ships and the offended tone of the pointing and OMG! that I don't get.

Date: 2005-07-31 02:30 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] meret.livejournal.com
From where I'm standing, BSG often seems a very cranky fandom.

ITA! I've been lucky enough to miss the latest war, (I guess being sick is good for something), but not since XF have I seen a fandom where a site or comm or whatever is dedicated to tearing down other's fic. Unfortunately, it seems far more prevelant in BSG than it ever was in XF. Or perhaps, given the nature of LJ, it's simply more visable. No one forces people to read fic, be it het or slash. If they don't like it, then I don't understand why they just don't not click on it. I can't see any purpose other than mean-spiritedness in publically mocking other's work or ship of choice.

Date: 2005-07-31 07:09 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] k-julia.livejournal.com
For what it's worth, I don't think there was a 'war' as such, which is a good thing. Nevertheless, the hostility in some places is quite mind-boggling.

And also, the looking for something to get offended by. I was thinking of that incident with your manip, too, and the pointing and mocking (and 'OMG WTF?!') involved in that. And apart from it being unpleasant for you, it was just odd to watch.

not since XF have I seen a fandom where a site or comm or whatever is dedicated to tearing down other's fic.

Well. I've seen those in other fandoms, and my reaction has always depended on circumstance. In BSG, I just don't feel the need; I don't think we're swamped with one particular cliché over and over, or that we're being stifled with badfic or anything, so I don't really get it. However, I don't believe in 'If you can't say anything nice...' when it comes to talking about fiction, so I'm not in principle opposed to 'negative reviews'. Whether I find it interesting or just an example of someone looking for something to get huffy and bitchy about is really a matter of case-by-case.

Date: 2005-07-31 08:43 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] meret.livejournal.com
However, I don't believe in 'If you can't say anything nice...' when it comes to talking about fiction, so I'm not in principle opposed to 'negative reviews'. Whether I find it interesting or just an example of someone looking for something to get huffy and bitchy about is really a matter of case-by-case.

There's a big difference between constructive criticism and making fun of someone's writing. I have have no problem with the former at all.

And also, the looking for something to get offended by. I was thinking of that incident with your manip, too, and the pointing and mocking (and 'OMG WTF?!') involved in that. And apart from it being unpleasant for you, it was just odd to watch.

I still don't understand why people would click on something they know they won't like, be it manip or pairing. It baffles me.

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